Is modern sled engine reliabilty that bad?

[70chevelle]

I've been out of the sport since 08. Looking for 2 used sleds. I've researched, talked to a few buddies. So I guess I'm looking for sleds up to $6500. I see quite a few with 4-6k miles on them. People on the forums say to run from Poo 800, etecs blowing up all the time too. If a person buys a sled with 4-5k miles in lets say an 800 etec or Poo or perhaps an etec 600, what is the realistic amount of time before detonation? I'm seriously considering looking into a 1200 Doo or ZR 7000 at this point....but am skeptical about performance and weight.

[whitedust]

If you’re looking for peace of mind you’re on the right track looking at a modern turbo or NA 4s sled. The Doo NA 900 and turbo are the lightest of the modern 4s sleds. If weight is your hot button Polaris 2s are currently the lightweight champ. You didn’t say what your riding style is so I’m assuming you are a high mile trail rider concerned about engine longevity which is better suited by 4s engines. Yamaha and doo are your 4s brands , AC has the Thundercat Polaris is all 2s. I’m not sure about availability of used Yamaha 4s sleds but used Doo 4s sleds are difficult to find since most keep their sleds.

[grub]

Go find a two year old Pol 600 straight tunnel sled. It will be cheaper than your budget. It will never blow up. And it will go plenty fast enough and get really good gas mileage. Very few riders need or use the extra power of an 800 or a 900 or a big turbo sled.

[tjmaxx]

If you primarily trail ride a 4 stroke is a great option. I just bought a 900T so I can't say much about it since I haven't rode but my last sled was a 1200, it was faster than any 600, 700 or 800 2 stroke I've had in the past. If you are planning to off trail ride then a 2 stroke is the one. The new 2 stroke sleds will likely last longer than an older 2 stroke as long as they are taken care of.

[grub]

A straight tunnel Pol 600 weighs about 460 dry. Any four stroker is going to be at least 100 lbs heavier. My Sidewinder goes about 640 dry. Even with good shocks you will feel the extra weight after a long day.

[70chevelle]

I will ride some trails....I ride cruiser speed. The rest will be some river riding. As far as a straight tunnel Polaris goes are we talking Indy 600?

[jknoup]

I've got a 2016 Indy 600 sp in the Terrain Dominator package. It has a little over 2000 miles on it and it is spotless. I was going to trade it in this coming weekend, but would sell it outright if you're interested. Asking $5200 815-238-3985

[wirev]

A straight tunnel Pol 600 weighs about 460 dry. Any four stroker is going to be at least 100 lbs heavier. My Sidewinder goes about 640 dry. Even with good shocks you will feel the extra weight after a long day.

My 1200 is 501 dry after some tinkering.

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A straight tunnel Pol 600 weighs about 460 dry. Any four stroker is going to be at least 100 lbs heavier. My Sidewinder goes about 640 dry. Even with good shocks you will feel the extra weight after a long day.

Don't know anything about Poos. Never heard the expression. Are there crooked tunnel ones?

[whitedust]

Weight wars were market drivers in 2008 and Doo was the lightest. Now days weight is important and Doo 4s are pretty darn light. Doo 4s handle well on trail even the turbo is light. Modern sleds are purpose built sleds from work sleds, cross overs to high marking powder sleds. Me I’ve been on both Yamaha and Doo 4s sleds since 2006 after numerous 2s burndowns. The used sleds your looking at even the Viper was lighter than the Vector. The Doo air ride is also a very comfortable suspension. I’m not going to knock injected 2s but for me 4000 miles and I had burndowns. I’m sure others may have had better results but not me and probably why your buddies are cautioning you. I’m a power cruiser especially on lakes and grades and my 2s ran very well right up to the burndowns. I probably have 30 to 40,000 miles on 4s and zero engine problems.

[whitedust]

My 1200 is 501 dry after some tinkering.

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Don't know anything about Poos. Never heard the expression. Are there crooked tunnel ones?

I’m pretty sure Grub is talking about the early Rush suspension vs the cookie cutter straight tunnel Indys now available.

[mrbb]

well my 2 cents, to be honest at the 4-5,000 mile mark, most 2 stroke motors are due to being checked for compression as that is honestly getting towards the end of there top end life span before things start to go south, its NORMAL WEAR AND TEAR, nothing new here(older sleds adn motors were even sooner to be honest so new motors are getting better)

NOW< at 4-5,000 miles it doesn't MEAN they NEED a top end, it means things should be checked and then checked more often as more time and miles add up.
there are countless folks that get more than twice this 4-5000 miles (many get 10-12,000+ miles on modern 2 stroke motors) and then some on miles on modern 2 strokes problem free, but then there are also many that DON"T!.
Sleds are wear and tear toys, like it or not, HOW there driven, where there riven and how there cared for in seasons and off matters as t how long many things past, you cannot just look at a used sled and say, LOW miles GREAT High miles RUN!, its not that simple, every other wear part on a sled has to be taken care of they all work together to either make for a well cared for sled or not
4 stroke motors just have longer intervals before top ends are needed, there not magically more reliable by any means, there just a different design and as such they have different intervals on things! rest of sled is the same to wear and tear!
there are LOYAL followers of every brand that have GREAT luck and long life of there BRAND sled, ain't no way to say buy this make or model in a used sled, as how it was cared for or not matters more IMO, than just picking a yr or model ever will!

[SledTL]

I think the biggest takeaway is look at all the other vehicles in the garage/area of the seller. Are they taken care of? Stuff obviously wears, but if its taken care of and not beat on then I would not have an issue buying something if its priced accordingly.

[tjmaxx]

A straight tunnel Pol 600 weighs about 460 dry. Any four stroker is going to be at least 100 lbs heavier. My Sidewinder goes about 640 dry. Even with good shocks you will feel the extra weight after a long day.

Ski doo 900 ace renegade is listed at 501 pounds dry. Heavier... yes but not 100 pounds. Yamaha I believe 100 pounds heavier. I've never been worn out from riding my 1200 renegade 200 or more miles in a day. It's such a smooth trail machine I'd argue my 600 Polaris switchback wears me out more

[pwolfy2003]

You might as well figure on putting a new motor in the two strokes at 4 to 5000 miles, switched over to four strokes about six years ago and will never ever go back, add gas & go , had as many as 15,000 on my four strokes and never touched a motor yet! As far as the weight of the four stroke, don’t let too many people tell you it’s a big deal because it’s seriously not! If you do a lot of off trail riding the two-stroke is probably the way to go but trail riding I would never go to anything but the fours!!

[UP RIDER]

I have a Buddy that runs a rental fleet of 600 Indys , he is getting 14,000. To 20,000. Miles out of the motors. We have two 800 Poos and two 600 Poos currently one 6 and one 8 both have over 8,000. Miles on them . The head bolts have never been loosened on any of them. So unless you are one of Trail burners that puts on 5k a year you will probably be tired of the Sled before you burn it down.

[grub]

Read the post. The guy is from Milwaukee and has been out of the sport since 2008. He wants 2 sleds. I am assuming a husband and wife trailering to trail ride. He is not going to be putting on a buttload of miles a year. He doesn't need the latest and greatest stuff. He also does not need to spend a whole bunch of money to get back in. Polaris has always built solid 600s. If you find one with 5000 miles on it yes it maybe could use a refreshed top end. But not the whole motor. Those motors are so simple you could find some guy living in a culvert to put in a set of pistons and rings. $300 bucks tops in parts. But it probably won't even need it. Most people think what they have is the end all. Dust likes his Doo 900. Snobuilder likes his XCR. But in reality all a person really needs is an XC or an S P Pol 600. Polaris is going to the new 650 and the 600 will be phased out and 600s are going to be CHEAP. And there is nothing the matter with them. Let the guy start out by just getting his feet wet and not jumping back in up to his neck. If he decides he wants something different after a season or two then he can make the call. You can usually get most of your money back on a 6 while you will get hosed on just about anything else.

[Skylar]

600 Poo is pretty rock solid. I had 5200 miles on my 07 RMK when I sold it in 2012, and the last I heard it had over 7500 on it, and still running strong!

[whitedust]

Lots of good information as usual regarding 2s vs 4s engines herein. You definitely posted on the correct website for a fair response on both engines. What I have learned is I’m not a guy who will perform incremental mileage compression tests and carry spare plugs should plugs get fouled on the trail. I’ll check fluids , grease zerks once in awhile but for the most part I’m a gas and go rider and don’t want to worry about 2s burndowns. 4s are a more reliable engine by design than any 2s and are heavier by design as well. It maybe best to ask yourself how much maintenance do I want to do in a season? Who will do a top end for me on and injected 2s because 2s all come to that with miles? 4s are pretty much check fluids ,do an oil change every 3500 miles gas , go and ride with a super high probability the engine will not be the cause of a trail break down.

[euphoric1]

600 Poo is pretty rock solid. I had 5200 miles on my 07 RMK when I sold it in 2012, and the last I heard it had over 7500 on it, and still running strong!

AGREED! had 2002 touring 600 9200 miles, maintenance and a couple exhaust bellows, brother has had it now for 3 years so not sure how many miles now but still running

[grub]

I've got a 2016 Indy 600 sp in the Terrain Dominator package. It has a little over 2000 miles on it and it is spotless. I was going to trade it in this coming weekend, but would sell it outright if you're interested. Asking $5200 815-238-3985

There you go. And there are plenty more out there to choose from. You would be under budget and could buy a nice new suit to go with it. Clothing and all other gear has come a long way since 2008.

[jime]

'89 RXL blew at 500mi. warranted oil weep holes '08 MXZ blew at 16,000mi. when i lent it out. looking at new track now for '15 etec at 11,000mi. so i expect more time with this sled. do the maintenance.

[chunk06]

I've got a 2016 Indy 600 sp in the Terrain Dominator package. It has a little over 2000 miles on it and it is spotless. I was going to trade it in this coming weekend, but would sell it outright if you're interested. Asking $5200 815-238-3985

I just sold a comparable Indy600 SP. Yours will sell for that price quick. My wife just bought her 5th Polaris 600, all of them have been bulletproof and quick for what they are. I tried to talk her into a 900T but she hated my Viper. I told her the Doo would be better, but she has had good luck with the Poo 600's

[indy_500]

I just tore down the top end on my 2015 indy 600 with 10k miles to replace the pistons preventatively. Best looking pistons I’ve ever taken out of a sled and they had 10k on them... almost felt guilty.

[srt20]

I just tore down the top end on my 2015 indy 600 with 10k miles to replace the pistons preventatively. Best looking pistons I’ve ever taken out of a sled and they had 10k on them... almost felt guilty.

but did you measure them?

[WorkHardPlayHrd]

If the second sled is being bought for a woman does she have any experience in the sport. If she doesn't how old is she and has she ever done any ATV, side by side, or motorcycle riding. If not you are going to want to consider finding her the best suspension you can for your money, and as light weight as possible. A heated seat would be a plus which you could get on a 4 stroke. I hate to admit this since my family practically bleeds green and I have a Thundercat, but I would probably be looking at a Doo for her. This would not just be about buying an affordable sled, but one that would give her the best overall experience. A sled like mine would be impossible to handle for an inexperienced woman, and if it's cold out you want to keep her warm. If trails are trashed you want the best ride under her as possible or you will find out how fast she can start to hate snowmobiling and be saying things like "This was a stupid idea why did we spend all this money." The Indy is a really good sled, but if I recall correctly no heated seat. I know there are those of you on the forum who have introduced sledding to women over the years. What made it positive, and what made it a disaster.

If my assumption about a woman rider is wrong just bypass the comment. Happy trails.

[indy_500]

but did you measure them?

Nahhh since I had the new ones ready to go in anyways. It ran good still. The sled needed more skid maintenance than anything.

[70chevelle]

Affirmative on it all. We do nothing fun!.....work,work, work. I got out in 08 after my 1108 tcat puked a piston. Done with the drama. I’ve missed it. My wife did a few river miles down here....never any trails. Also no atv’s etc. Doo has heated seats now?

If the second sled is being bought for a woman does she have any experience in the sport. If she doesn't how old is she and has she ever done any ATV, side by side, or motorcycle riding. If not you are going to want to consider finding her the best suspension you can for your money, and as light weight as possible. A heated seat would be a plus which you could get on a 4 stroke. I hate to admit this since my family practically bleeds green and I have a Thundercat, but I would probably be looking at a Doo for her. This would not just be about buying an affordable sled, but one that would give her the best overall experience. A sled like mine would be impossible to handle for an inexperienced woman, and if it's cold out you want to keep her warm. If trails are trashed you want the best ride under her as possible or you will find out how fast she can start to hate snowmobiling and be saying things like "This was a stupid idea why did we spend all this money." The Indy is a really good sled, but if I recall correctly no heated seat. I know there are those of you on the forum who have introduced sledding to women over the years. What made it positive, and what made it a disaster.

If my assumption about a woman rider is wrong just bypass the comment. Happy trails.

[whitedust]

My Doo 900t Enduro has electric seat never thought I would need it but sweet in single digits and below weather. Also some modern 4s have 3 different HP settings Eco ,standard and sport very friendly for the wife. Never thought I would need that either but Eco super for loading or unloading from trailer no track spin. Standard nice for group trail riding no pulling your arms off then sport for a high strung rip it ride. Doo throttle also turns 360 degrees so wifey can flip over if sore thumb. Lots of neat features since 2008 bought mine stock with ice ripper track and 3 position riser. Linq rack great for bags and extra gas can.

[gary_in_neenah]

I know there are those of you on the forum who have introduced sledding to women over the years. What made it positive, and what made it a disaster.

My, wife rode with me when we were dating. Then we got married and not as much as a sniff of snowmobiling. And I'm quoting here, "they're noisy, stinky, machines that tip over all the time" plus she doesn't like the cold. But here's the win-win, I can play in the snow and she's content to stay warm, read a book or watch a movie. I come home to a hot meal, warm house, and happy wife. It's all good!

[gary_in_neenah]

Whitedust nailed it. Three settings depending on the skill levels and the rotating throttle are great. I've been on a 4 stroke for the last 10 years. Change the oil and filter once a year, after that it's Gas & Go.

[WorkHardPlayHrd]

Affirmative on it all. We do nothing fun!.....work,work, work. I got out in 08 after my 1108 tcat puked a piston. Done with the drama. I’ve missed it. My wife did a few river miles down here....never any trails. Also no atv’s etc. Doo has heated seats now?

I outright threatened my husband with a divorce after 10 years of marriage, five kids, and a farm we never got away from. Said you have a sled your buying me one, and were going to Michigan for 3 days. It was St Patty's day weekend and I will never forget how beautiful all the trails were from Mass City north. It was also my first experience with Pat's Motorsports because we had problems with my husband's wildcat. First rate amazing crew there. One of the best! Well after falling behind my husband all day cause I was maxing out the 440 we bought 2011 Cfrs the next February as leftovers. Mine the 800 his the 1000 2stroke. Put over 8,000 miles on them in 5 years with a lot of Michigan or Northern Wisconsin riding. Trails in our area just don't open, or stay open. Fall of 2017 we bought the matching 17 thundercats. I will say I love the 3 clicker shocks. The suspension puts my older cfr to shame. We work hard, and play harder. 300 + mile days are common. It is our one massive outlet from the farm. The kids love drag racing, and we can do it as a family.

I want your wife to enjoy this. Which is why I wrote the first post. Also if at all possible the first few times you go out on the trail if possible go midweek. Way less traffic, better trail conditions because of less traffic, and she will be able to acclimate to the sport with less weekend warriors tearing through the corners. Do not make your first trip to Grand Marais Michigan on a weekend. The scenery is beautiful, but the riders on the weekends up there are some of the most aggressive I have ever encountered.

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My, wife rode with me when we were dating. Then we got married and not as much as a sniff of snowmobiling. And I'm quoting here, "they're noisy, stinky, machines that tip over all the time" plus she doesn't like the cold. But here's the win-win, I can play in the snow and she's content to stay warm, read a book or watch a movie. I come home to a hot meal, warm house, and happy wife. It's all good!

I understand Gary, those of us that enjoy it aren't the norm. But I farm so I guess you could say I'm already crazy.

[hermie]

[QUOTE=WorkHardPlayHrd;498594I know there are those of you on the forum who have introduced sledding to women over the years. What made it positive, and what made it a disaster.

When I introduced my now wife to the sport I made sure to get her good gear, a ece rated light helmet,warm boots are a must. I also put on a real windshield and handle bar gauntlets once she got some miles on. We have been together 11 years and have ridden approximately 25,000 miles together. She is my riding partner and we love it. The only real disaster was I took her for 2 long of a ride our first trip went from Presque Isle to lake of the clouds and back she was pretty sore to day the least but she gave it another try and now loves it. Also set up the suspension for her makes a huge difference.

[longtrack]

If you ride a 2 stroke and never go over half Throttle they last for 10,000 miles plus.

Open it up and hold your Breath it will probably blow up.

Every time I rode with a buddy of mine I Blew a Belt on my old 1200s. If I rode with my Wife Belts last forever.

Now with our 900 4 strokes its Gas and Go and Belts last forever. I have no idea how long these 4 Strokes last we never had a issue except
we change Spark Plugs at 10,000 and that may be to early.

I think the 900na is 25 to 30 Lbs heavier than the 600 E tek. The 900 is about the same weight as a 850.

[garageguy]

I wouldn't think of taking a polaris 600 apart with less than 10,000 mi. On it. My buddys 700 made it 23,000 mi. Befor crank went.my other buddy has a 600 with 14,000 mi. And its wide open all the time.

[katden4]

I ride 1500-2000 miles a year. Keep the sled usually 3-4 years. One time I changed out pistons at 5000 just to be ahead in my opinion. Yes I am ready for some bashing, but never burned down a piston that wasn't my fault. Cleaned carbs on a 94 zr 700 and put the float arm in upside down, yes its possible. Burned it down twice in the same spot 25 miles out of town until I realized what I did. The BIGGEST mistake I see all the time is people coming out of a bar or restaurant, firing it up, and not letting the motor warm up. Cold seizure happens far more often than any other type of failure, unless its really high miles. Now with fuel injected, and better oil selection, you really don't see too many burn downs. I do most of my own work, and raced for many years so I do understand how things work. How about some of the mechanics from the shops up north, any thoughts on this? I would love to hear your side as you see 1000 more situations than I do. I get some really like the 4 strokes, and they are really nice for a lot of applications, but still not there yet for me to want one. My current sled is a 2018 arctic cat 2018 cross country. Getting ready for a Riot next. If A/C doesn't start to make change very soon, then its a Polaris assault. I honestly don't care what you ride, its what you like and how it performs for you is why we spend so much cash on the sport. One suggestion for you, is buy a brand that has support close to the area you ride the most. A good strong dealership is your best friend when on vacation!

[DamageInc]

If you ride a 2 stroke and never go over half Throttle they last for 10,000 miles plus.

Open it up and hold your Breath it will probably blow up.

Every time I rode with a buddy of mine I Blew a Belt on my old 1200s. If I rode with my Wife Belts last forever.

Now with our 900 4 strokes its Gas and Go and Belts last forever. I have no idea how long these 4 Strokes last we never had a issue except
we change Spark Plugs at 10,000 and that may be to early.

I think the 900na is 25 to 30 Lbs heavier than the 600 E tek. The 900 is about the same weight as a 850.

Ha ha, tell that to my Cat 700. It has over 10,000 miles on it, and most of them were WFO. Most of the Cat "laydown" style engines have excellent durability. But your statement is somewhat true with the 800 ETEC, since there is no fuel cooling the bottom end. The grease tends to leak out of the sealed crank bearings from the heat of long pulls.

To the original question: you can't lump all of the modern two-strokes together for that answer. Some have excellent durability, some are not so good. The Poo 800s had very short lives until around 2016. Pistons wore quickly, and crank failures were way too common. They made some improvements in 2016, but still behind the Cat 800 two-strokes for durability. The Doo 800 ETECs had fairly short lives until the 850 with oiled crank bearings (and Doo engine parts are really expensive compared to Cat or Poo). I know a few people with over 10k on their 850 (and still going strong), which was unheard of with an 800 ETEC. It took them a while to figure out how to build a clean two-stroke that is still reliable, but they seem to be on the right track.

If you really want long life out of a two-stroke, buy a Poo or Cat 600. Cheaper to buy, cheaper to insure, less vibration, longer clutch life, and usually longer engine life.

[Tracker]

I've been out of the sport since 08. Looking for 2 used sleds. I've researched, talked to a few buddies. So I guess I'm looking for sleds up to $6500. I see quite a few with 4-6k miles on them. People on the forums say to run from Poo 800, etecs blowing up all the time too. If a person buys a sled with 4-5k miles in lets say an 800 etec or Poo or perhaps an etec 600, what is the realistic amount of time before detonation? I'm seriously considering looking into a 1200 Doo or ZR 7000 at this point....but am skeptical about performance and weight.

No ...what you hear are basically idiots....who don't warm the sled up properly IMO....there is ABSOLUTELY no reason you should ever have to rebuild an engine...my 2004 EFI 700 has 22000 miles...I have 3 1999 ZR 600s EFI with 10000 each....I have a bud with a 1999 600 SP polaris with 13000....an uncle with a 2003 F7 EFI with 10000 miles...and many more I could tell you about just like these....never rebuilt any...we always use OEM OIL....always warm engine for 5 mins in morning...and ALWAYS run premium...the CAT EFI system is far superior....you wouldn't buy a car without EFI and throttle bodies would you...so why a sled?....anyone has to rebuild a motor in under 5000 miles is a novice at best....Skidoos included....like someone else said your best bet is a CAT 600 EFI or 600 SP poo or something similar....the higher the horsepower and CCs the more the owner had to know about sledding and proper breakin...and most people are CLUELESS at best....theres nothing wrong with modern sleds...90% of problems are operator error...good luck in looking

[garageguy]

Good oil good gas warm the thing up.

[Magnumb]

Weight wars were market drivers in 2008 and Doo was the lightest. Now days weight is important and Doo 4s are pretty darn light. Doo 4s handle well on trail even the turbo is light. Modern sleds are purpose built sleds from work sleds, cross overs to high marking powder sleds. Me I’ve been on both Yamaha and Doo 4s sleds since 2006 after numerous 2s burndowns. The used sleds your looking at even the Viper was lighter than the Vector. The Doo air ride is also a very comfortable suspension. I’m not going to knock injected 2s but for me 4000 miles and I had burndowns. I’m sure others may have had better results but not me and probably why your buddies are cautioning you. I’m a power cruiser especially on lakes and grades and my 2s ran very well right up to the burndowns. I probably have 30 to 40,000 miles on 4s and zero engine problems.

Surprises me how many people don't check their oil consumption on these injected sleds. After checking a few I noticed they were not set to the ideal 40:1 or 50:1 mix and can change slightly over time. I think a lot of these 2s sleds can hit 10k no problem if warmed up properly and not overheated a bunch of times. The people that complain no stop about blowing up sleds seem to be the same ones who just think you can dump gas in your sled and jump on it and ride it year over year without any maintenance. Even adjusting the chain case, cleaning out the exhaust valves and changing the clutch rollers every 2-3 years would help them last longer and run a lot better and cleaner.

[whitedust]

Surprises me how many people don't check their oil consumption on these injected sleds. After checking a few I noticed they were not set to the ideal 40:1 or 50:1 mix and can change slightly over time. I think a lot of these 2s sleds can hit 10k no problem if warmed up properly and not overheated a bunch of times. The people that complain no stop about blowing up sleds seem to be the same ones who just think you can dump gas in your sled and jump on it and ride it year over year without any maintenance. Even adjusting the chain case, cleaning out the exhaust valves and changing the clutch rollers every 2-3 years would help them last longer and run a lot better and cleaner.

Totally agree see post 18.