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  1. #1
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    Default Proposed Vehicle Miles Traveled Tax

    Well it is all about to get interesting. VMT (vehicle miles traveled) tax is being vetted by the powers that be in Washington. So those of us in rural areas could get dinged just for driving longer distances to buy essentials. I know in my neck of the woods the people that were unfortunately furloughed because of the pandemic cannot afford housing in the urban area so they tend to live further distances out from the urban part of our area, we might as well keep kicking them around.

    https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...re-gains-steam

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    Meanwhile, here in California, 8% of the vehicles travel on free roads, they are electric and don't pay gas tax.

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    Is this a joke

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    Here's even a better one.

    What happens if you use your vehicle as part of your job, do you get taxed while working to make a wage.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rv245 View Post
    Here's even a better one.

    What happens if you use your vehicle as part of your job, do you get taxed while working to make a wage.
    No that would or should be a write off, just like it is now when you write off the gas you buy to go from job to job.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by indy_500 View Post
    Is this a joke
    No joke. This idea has been floating in congress for 10 years only gaining considerable traction now.

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    Quote Originally Posted by heckler56 View Post
    Well it is all about to get interesting. VMT (vehicle miles traveled) tax is being vetted by the powers that be in Washington. So those of us in rural areas could get dinged just for driving longer distances to buy essentials. I know in my neck of the woods the people that were unfortunately furloughed because of the pandemic cannot afford housing in the urban area so they tend to live further distances out from the urban part of our area, we might as well keep kicking them around.

    https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...re-gains-steam
    Just another way for our elected officials to screw over the middle class.
    Last edited by Skylar; 03-29-2021 at 05:03 AM.
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    A transfer of wealth from the "suburban / rural" citizen to the urban citizen. Tax paid to the gubmint then given away as free this and free that for inner city

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    Quote Originally Posted by heckler56 View Post
    No joke. This idea has been floating in congress for 10 years only gaining considerable traction now.
    The odometer doesn’t even work on my beater car that I drive to work. It’s been stuck at 116,000 miles, guess I’ll be driving that everywhere I go LOL

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    Quote Originally Posted by dfattack View Post
    A transfer of wealth from the "suburban / rural" citizen to the urban citizen. Tax paid to the gubmint then given away as free this and free that for inner city
    Agree 100% Could not have said it better!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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    It certainly isn't a fun subject. Truckers have been dealing with this for years. The process has evolved a lot. It used to be an estimated tax when crossing state lines.
    Gas taxes sorta made sense. You paid for what you used. Tollways were similar in design.
    I expect to see more vehicle tracking to implement upgrades to VMT. I'm not a big fan of that approach.
    Roads and bridges are not cheap. They won't get cheaper to build and maintain. It amazes me when I drive the miles and miles of roads out in the middle of nowhere. I grew up with those roads. We could not build those roads today with our funding structure. (I'm glad they were built when it was possible.)
    BTW, The topic is worth a good debate. (Let's keep the discussion open without playing a blame game.) It would be nice to come up with a system that keeps the wheels turning. The evolution of commerce, (more cubes and cardboard), is putting even more trucks on the road. The subject isn't going away.
    Last edited by favoritos; 03-29-2021 at 09:36 AM.

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    If they pass this, unless they stick their nose in my car to see the mileage, they will never get an accurate reading from me. With so many people working at home and so many that will stay working from home, I'm sure they are concerned about their revenue coffers running low. Not to mention, EV's don't buy gas, so they have to figure out a way to get that money they gave to buy said EV, back into the revenue streams.

    Its quite comical when you think about it. They push for higher MPG's, lower emissions, and EV's to "save", yet they still have to find a way to collect a tax.

    The two subjects we are most afraid of are the two most guaranteed: Death and Taxes.

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    Favoritos I can agree with you could be a good debate, there are a lot of roads and bridges in this country that need help. Per mile tax could be fair in reality because the people that drive should pay for the roads, weather it be by gas or mileage, getting money out of the electric/ hybrid people. Biggest thing I have a problem with is kinda like dfattack said all money going to inner city but now to the poor but big cities continuing to build wider and wider highways and they still neglect the rural areas that truly rack up the big miles. Also now someone that drives 20 miles in rush hour still may use as much fuel as a rural drive on 60 miles or more. What equals fair, I don’t know. Should the person driving the big Suburban pay the same as the Prius or the semi pulling a triple trailer?

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    I just don't see how they would be able to keep track of everyone's mileage, way to easy to cheat the system...no way of getting around paying tax on fuel.

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    I have been spinning solutions in my mind since I first came upon it. The only item that jumps out is to eliminate EV's getting such a dramatic tax break. The tax break started the push that direction and many auto manufactures are committed towards EVs. If we don't shut down the tax benefit it will end up like corn which for its subsidized way into everything with the bonus of possible link to increased diabetes..

    One unintentional outcome will likely be people choosing to fly and I thought they wanted to restrict that travel under the green new deal..

    I am a big fan of making the playing field even. Maybe like the citizens they serve, congress should stay home and Zoom meetings..

    Sorry Indy, it will be a flat fee if you don't give the man your gps, phone or car odometer....

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    they wont eliminate the gas tax, they will just add another one on top of it
    your milliage when you buy and sell a vehicle better match what you paid tax on or they will make you write a check at the dmv for the difference i am guessing

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    I wonder how much money is stolen from the transportation budget, to fund other pet projects by our elected officials.
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    Quote Originally Posted by goofy600 View Post
    No that would or should be a write off, just like it is now when you write off the gas you buy to go from job to job.
    Not in all cases, I work for USPS and have to us my own vehicle to deliver. I do get paid mileage for the route, but again, will we get taxed for mileage or will they tax the company?

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    Quote Originally Posted by latner View Post
    I just don't see how they would be able to keep track of everyone's mileage, way to easy to cheat the system...no way of getting around paying tax on fuel.
    Assign a standard mpg rating, calculate at the pump. If that number is 25 mpg , you pump 20 gallons, you drove 500 miles.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Skylar View Post
    I wonder how much money is stolen from the transportation budget, to fund other pet projects by our elected officials.
    Currently the Highway Trust Fund is about $15b a year short of what is spent on roads, requiring a transfer from the general fund.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dcsnomo View Post
    Assign a standard mpg rating, calculate at the pump. If that number is 25 mpg , you pump 20 gallons, you drove 500 miles.
    So what happens when I fill 4 - 5 gallon jugs for home use? I get penalized for mileage?

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    Quote Originally Posted by latner View Post
    I just don't see how they would be able to keep track of everyone's mileage, way to easy to cheat the system...no way of getting around paying tax on fuel.
    Odometer? Logged/verified upon purchase/sale-registration of vehicles.
    If you fudged the numbers over the years, they get you then?
    I'm sure they'll come up with something to screw us.

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    IMO tax for road purposes should be collected at the pump, having said that they need to come up with a way to somehow tax the EV'S, I do not believe not having to pay any kind of road tax just because fossil fuels are not pushing you down the road should null and void any road tax, I don't know the answer to it but it shouldn't be so instead of figuring out how to stick it to the rest of us, they should figure out how to collect from them first, and I cannot believe that it has taken this long with EV'S becoming more and more popular and vehicles becoming more and more fuel efficient. I hate to say this but whether you drive a 1 ton gas guzzler or a EV you are using the road and there has to be a way to collect tax and I think it starts with the EV's. Someone stated about how cars have become more and more fuel efficient this less gas being sold. Look at homes we have made them tighter and tighter and more energy efficient, unless you have solar power has the cost of energy ever dropped comparatively? yes your bill may have dropped but what has happened with the cost of energy over time? hasn't gotten cheaper. No matter what you navigate the roads with you should have to pay, without them where are you going to go?

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    Quote Originally Posted by xcr440 View Post
    If they pass this, unless they stick their nose in my car to see the mileage, they will never get an accurate reading from me. With so many people working at home and so many that will stay working from home, I'm sure they are concerned about their revenue coffers running low. Not to mention, EV's don't buy gas, so they have to figure out a way to get that money they gave to buy said EV, back into the revenue streams.

    Its quite comical when you think about it. They push for higher MPG's, lower emissions, and EV's to "save", yet they still have to find a way to collect a tax.

    The two subjects we are most afraid of are the two most guaranteed: Death and Taxes.
    Just had this talk with an 80 year old customer of mine. His words not mine "ya but death doesnt keep getting worse as time goes on"

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    Quote Originally Posted by slimcake View Post
    Just had this talk with an 80 year old customer of mine. His words not mine "ya but death doesnt keep getting worse as time goes on"
    Not necessarily true.... look what it costs when you die....just sayin

    What about a base gas price with road tax a constant. I like everyone else liked paying $1.00/gal of gas when it dropped that far, heck alot of us would have been happy with $2.00/gal. not to be debbie downer here but maybe instead of allowing gas to drop that far have a set ammount with a set tax some how that it cant drop below, how much of that shortfall could we have helped if lets say we let it down to $1.50/gal with .50 going to road tax, intsead of it being $1.00/gal would anyone had complained paying $1.50..$1.75...$1.90/gal when in the not so distant past we were paying $3.00.. $4.00...$5.00/ gal? I doubt it, but we still have to figure out how to get it from the EV's

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    Whether the tax hike is needed or not, once applied it will never go away.
    Just like the toll roads were supposed to be temporary...yeah right

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    Quote Originally Posted by favoritos View Post
    It certainly isn't a fun subject. Truckers have been dealing with this for years. The process has evolved a lot. It used to be an estimated tax when crossing state lines.
    Gas taxes sorta made sense. You paid for what you used. Tollways were similar in design.
    I expect to see more vehicle tracking to implement upgrades to VMT. I'm not a big fan of that approach.
    Roads and bridges are not cheap. They won't get cheaper to build and maintain. It amazes me when I drive the miles and miles of roads out in the middle of nowhere. I grew up with those roads. We could not build those roads today with our funding structure. (I'm glad they were built when it was possible.)
    BTW, The topic is worth a good debate. (Let's keep the discussion open without playing a blame game.) It would be nice to come up with a system that keeps the wheels turning. The evolution of commerce, (more cubes and cardboard), is putting even more trucks on the road. The subject isn't going away.
    Very well stated!

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    They should keep the gas tax for standard vehicles and figure out a mileage tax for the EV'S and maybe a lesser milage tax for the hybrids

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    So basically our government is pushing EV’s because of global warming (emissions) so to save roads change to mileage tax instead of consumption (amount of fuel used). In theory makes sense until you figure out that cars in stop and go traffic creates more harmful emissions than car traveling at highway speeds for miles yet the high mileage traveler will get taxed more.

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    Quote Originally Posted by goofy600 View Post
    So basically our government is pushing EV’s because of global warming (emissions) so to save roads change to mileage tax instead of consumption (amount of fuel used). In theory makes sense until you figure out that cars in stop and go traffic creates more harmful emissions than car traveling at highway speeds for miles yet the high mileage traveler will get taxed more.
    Pretty much, and the high mileage people don't live in big chities, therefore do not make as much, but will be taxed more. Again, middle class getting screwed.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skylar View Post
    Pretty much, and the high mileage people don't live in big chities, therefore do not make as much, but will be taxed more. Again, middle class getting screwed.
    Kinda my thoughts also.

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    I kinda understand the argument with high mile drivers getting a bigger burden. It is hard for me to relate that to a class structure. I live in rural and metro areas and own land in both. My work is spread between the two areas. I actually prefer doing business in the rural areas based on costs alone. Driving is a small part of the expense outlay.
    Yes, there are more miles driven between locations in rural areas. It has always been that way. Plain old gas/fuel taxes were a method to help cover road repair and maintenance expenses. It isn't a bad deal in rural areas. We get a lot of road for the dollars I spend in user tax. I also don't have to share the rural roads with so many people. I have been pretty comfortable with the process. Less traffic also means less usage tax revenue. Road repairs and updates get spread out if they rely only on dollars collected. It is brutal finding money when township roads need work.
    The formulas to pay for road repairs and infrastructure are already complicated. Many do not really break down to actual vehicle miles on a road. We recognize the need for repairs and pull money out of a general road budget. We don't look at who paid into the budget and allocate funds to those roads specifically. Rural roads would suffer if we broke down costs in that manner and new roads would never be built. I certainly don't want to see that happen.
    I'm not a fan of the idea to use a VMT tax that outlays the true cost of miles driven. It would be even more expensive to drive down that nice highway in rural areas.
    What system would work to keep roads in shape for all areas? It isn't a simple answer. VMT style funding done with GPS tracking seems to be a likely contender. I'm a little concerned how that type of system would be utilized as a data tool for a miriad of different agendas. I think we can come up with better options.

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    I am a high mileage driver, I live 70 miles, one way, from where I work. I live in a county that has ONE stop light, I love living there, and will not move closer to work. That being said, I feel if there needs to be an increase, it should be a tax on gasoline/diesel only. I use more gas than someone who only drives 10 miles to work, therefore I do pay more in taxes than they do. Thatbis the only fair way to do it.. I cannot wrap my head around a mileage tax.
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    Quote Originally Posted by goofy600 View Post
    So basically our government is pushing EV’s because of global warming (emissions) so to save roads change to mileage tax instead of consumption (amount of fuel used). In theory makes sense until you figure out that cars in stop and go traffic creates more harmful emissions than car traveling at highway speeds for miles yet the high mileage traveler will get taxed more.
    It's not an emissions tax, it's a mileage tax. Whether gas or electric a vehicle driving more miles uses more road miles and should pay more. Works great as a gas tax until electrics drive for free.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Skylar View Post
    Pretty much, and the high mileage people don't live in big chities, therefore do not make as much, but will be taxed more. Again, middle class getting screwed.
    High mileage people are getting taxed more now because of gas used. Tax on mileage is not a new idea, it is the current system. More miles=more gas=more tax. Works fine until electrics drive for free. More miles =no gas=no tax paid.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Skylar View Post
    I am a high mileage driver, I live 70 miles, one way, from where I work. I live in a county that has ONE stop light, I love living there, and will not move closer to work. That being said, I feel if there needs to be an increase, it should be a tax on gasoline/diesel only. I use more gas than someone who only drives 10 miles to work, therefore I do pay more in taxes than they do. Thatbis the only fair way to do it.. I cannot wrap my head around a mileage tax.
    But what if your neighbor owns a Tesla and drives the same 70 miles as you, right behind you every day. He is not contributing to the road he is using. No fuel, no tax, no contribution.

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    I think this discussion is missing the point as it has a very narrow focus. At the end of 2018 there were 1 million electric vehicles on US roads. By the end of 2030 it is projected to be 18.7 million or 7%, by 2040 31% of cars on US roads will be electric.

    They can't all drive for free. The gas tax is an old solution. We need a new solution. I'm not saying a mileage tax is good or bad, but seeing all these Teslas out here in CA driving on free roads kinda pisses me off.

    And for the record, I believe my next car will be electric as it suits my lifestyle. I'm not against EVs, I'm against freeloading!

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    Quote Originally Posted by dcsnomo View Post
    I think this discussion is missing the point as it has a very narrow focus. At the end of 2018 there were 1 million electric vehicles on US roads. By the end of 2030 it is projected to be 18.7 million or 7%, by 2040 31% of cars on US roads will be electric.

    They can't all drive for free. The gas tax is an old solution. We need a new solution. I'm not saying a mileage tax is good or bad, but seeing all these Teslas out here in CA driving on free roads kinda pisses me off.

    And for the record, I believe my next car will be electric as it suits my lifestyle. I'm not against EVs, I'm against freeloading!
    I think the point most of us are getting at, is the proposed idea will without a doubt, cost those who put more miles on, more money in the end. There are plenty of inner city people who sit in traffic burning petrol all day long just to put on 5 miles, along with plenty of fuel inefficient vehicles (by choice) who both contribute their fair share to the road tax by purchasing gasoline with the current system. While I do agree it is time for a new system with the emergence of electric vehicles, I don’t know what a fair solution would be... Maybe in addition to the current system, add a flat rate yearly road tax for those with electric vehicles? Not sure... What I do find ironic is the current administration is obsessed with trying to get fuel inefficient vehicles off the road, going from taxing our fuel to taxing our mileage will do exactly the opposite of that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dcsnomo View Post
    I think this discussion is missing the point as it has a very narrow focus. At the end of 2018 there were 1 million electric vehicles on US roads. By the end of 2030 it is projected to be 18.7 million or 7%, by 2040 31% of cars on US roads will be electric.

    They can't all drive for free. The gas tax is an old solution. We need a new solution. I'm not saying a mileage tax is good or bad, but seeing all these Teslas out here in CA driving on free roads kinda pisses me off.

    And for the record, I believe my next car will be electric as it suits my lifestyle. I'm not against EVs, I'm against freeloading!
    Aren't EV vehicles being charged more for registration than a standard car?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skylar View Post
    Aren't EV vehicles being charged more for registration than a standard car?
    About half the states do. Fed owns interstate system, not states.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Skylar View Post
    Aren't EV vehicles being charged more for registration than a standard car?
    Not in Michigan.

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    So I read a number of articles from the UK today on carbon footprints, EV vs petrol. Interesting that EV in the manufacturing are considered 40ish times higher carbon footprint during manufacturing. The “theory “ is if you charge them with solar or wind you will eventually switch the footprint. But because coal, natural gas and nuclear are our sources for electricity it could be argued they are not a better choice. They go on to say “hybrid” cars are the worst since they rely on petrol and have minimal battery capacity.
    I want to also mention in those articles they brought up the mining of lithium for batteries and the devastating effects on the environment (something I always suspected).
    I think EVs actually will have a short life in the eyes of environmentalists. Once governments force their solution the people and the bashing will expose the downfall of the build. Think how good asbestos was in the early 1900’s. I personally see hydrogen vehicles to be the more lasting solution. With water coming out of the tailpipe. We just need to develop the “gas” stations and make it so you don’t end up in a Hindenburg.
    Truth be told, I bought a EV a couple months ago to replace a car. Tax credit $7500, discounts all added up to $17k. Then my utility gave the cost of my home charger. I did this under a short term lease to see how it works out. Around town is no big deal. However I feel this brick will require multiple charges to go to Detroit or Grand Rapids. I knew this would never replace my tow vehicle for sledding. Like the people I stay with are going to install a charging station, ya right.

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    [QUOTE=dcsnomo;506751]It's not an emissions tax, it's a mileage tax. Whether gas or electric a vehicle driving more miles uses more road miles and should pay more. Works great as a gas tax until electrics drive for free.

    I never said it was an emission tax, gas causes emissions (global warming if you believe in that) so they are pushing EV which is why they need to figure a new way to make money for roads is what I stated.

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    Heard this morning they already shelved the idea of a mileage tax.

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    Equitable makes sense.

    It certainly isn't easy to come up with a system that seems perfect.
    I worked with a couple of high mile commuters.(Frank and Ernie) Both of them drove over 90 miles one way. Their reasons were similar to what Skylar stated about community and their towns. We had a lot of conversations about their drive and it often turned into talk about the associated costs. It was often interesting because they had such a huge contrast in vehicles. Frank drove a mid 80s Suburban and Ernie drove a Geo.
    Ernie often joked with Frank about how much gas was going into the Suburban.

    "Your gas is paying for my road", "Frank, they finally finished that new section of highway, Thank You."

    We all shared a laugh about the topic because it sorta seemed fair. Frank's vehicle was big, (probably harder on the roads) and it used a lot of gas. Ernie's car was so tiny, it could almost run on a fluff of air. The variance in their user taxes made sense.

    I don't have a problem with a system that seems equitable.
    Latner, thanks for the info. I hope that is correct with the information about shelving the proposal. It didn't make sense in the big picture. Frank and Ernie would have paid the same. We wouldn't joke about that style of equity.

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    Think this may happen, don’t tax the EV so more and more switch over which for the environment is a good thing (you can insert political party if wanted) and continue to bump gas tax to stick it to the unenviromental people (again insert p p if wanted) until everyone is in an EV then they will have no choice but to come up with a new plan. Just something to think about, and unfortunately anything our government does anymore has a side instead of actually for the people.

  45. #45
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    It’s nothing more than a carbon tax. Each of us has a footprint on this planet and they want to tax you for being alive.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lenny View Post
    It’s nothing more than a carbon tax. Each of us has a footprint on this planet and they want to tax you for being alive.
    Lenny you are correct if you are alive you are taxed ( for the most part) some more than others. The more you play the more you pay. Other problem is all the loop holes in the system, if you make enough or have the right profession you can make more then others and pay a lot less. But to the mileage point they will have to make changes in the future it is inevitable. Don’t know what but it is.

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    United States
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    They just track it based off your microchip you'll get with your vaccine verification

  48. #48
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    Dec 2009
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    Traverse City, MI
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    Still trying to come up with real world solutions. I still think the Federal tax credit for EVs needs to be eliminated.

    Next, we can all agree petrol is being taxed and I appreciate the comparison above of a suburban and geo and their impact at the pump and on the roads. So maybe a increase in petrol tax is in order as it hasn’t been increased since the 90’s. Those of us towing to remote areas won’t be constrained by the downfall of EVs: charging, miles per charge, cold weather impact on battery performance, power outages, etc.

    Now EVs: I am thinking something similar to the petrol tax. As you drive around the country you will need to stop at a charging station, so a tax could be applied by kWh. As I mentioned before on my purchase of an EV, my electric company gave a payment to get a charger. This charger is now forever linked to my electric account. So I would think a tax per kWh could also be charged on my electric bill. Now one potential way I could get around it would be to use a standard house outlet but I can honestly say it was brutally slow when I first got the car. Like painfully slow and almost impracticality slow.

  49. #49
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    Dec 2009
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    Watersmeet
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    So in places like southeast Wisconsin and northern Illinois they have emission testing to renew license plates could it come to a point where they plug in your car to get accurate mileage then pay when renew plates? Imagine that mess to get that done! Just doing a quick search fed gas tax 18.4 cents, Michigan gas tax 18.7 cents per gallon but then the kicker is then there is the 6% sales tax that is charged. So you actually get taxed twice by the state, and I’m sure that is in all states just at different levels. So that is what they have to figure out for the EV people.

  50. #50
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    Dec 2009
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    North Twin Cities
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    1,272

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    Some sort of pay to play system would make sense.

    How to do it, is a tough question to answer. It is an ongoing debate around the world and EVs add a lot to the discussion. There are plenty of variables as mentioned just with charging methods. As we start to see more in that market, I would anticipate off peak charging also becoming a factor. It could help with grid management.

    We travel in Europe fairly often. It is surprising how many different fee systems they have between the EU countries. Part of the rental discussion involves which countries we will be driving. The rental vehicle is "loaded" for the systems we will encounter. Some countries use a flat fee permit system per passenger vehicle and some use travel toll system. There are also toll systems that rely on big infrastructure investments. Those are generally aimed at large vehicles and use drive by readers to measure travel. Those systems are impressive and incorporate traffic management with lane speeds for upcoming events(accidents, construction, etc.) They are not really practical for our situation in the U.S.

    Our situation in the U.S. isn't a simple one and done idea. We essentially have two types of driving and a lot of miles of highway. What works for city driving is not a good solution for rural highways. The contrast also creates difficulty in adapting a single type of vehicle. EV doesn't make any sense out in the middle of nowhere.

    I get the idea behind a VMT tax. Our current system essentially does that with the fuel tax. The EV segment is not paying their share to use the road. That disparity will continue to grow. I already deal with large truck fleets that are switching their local/mid delivery vehicles to battery based hybrids. The big players are ready to throw big money into EV fleets. We need a pay to play system for those rigs. There is also some irony to EV. They are heavier and put more weight travel on road surfaces.

    The number crunchers running these big fleets don't want to see a user fee attached to their EVs. There is also a segment of users that don't want to see it happen. But, everyone should pay to play.
    I'm just not a fan of VMT being used as an external monitoring system.

  51. #51
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Traverse City, MI
    Posts
    336

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    Quote Originally Posted by favoritos View Post
    Some sort of pay to play system would make sense.

    How to do it, is a tough question to answer. It is an ongoing debate around the world and EVs add a lot to the discussion. There are plenty of variables as mentioned just with charging methods. As we start to see more in that market, I would anticipate off peak charging also becoming a factor. It could help with grid management.

    We travel in Europe fairly often. It is surprising how many different fee systems they have between the EU countries. Part of the rental discussion involves which countries we will be driving. The rental vehicle is "loaded" for the systems we will encounter. Some countries use a flat fee permit system per passenger vehicle and some use travel toll system. There are also toll systems that rely on big infrastructure investments. Those are generally aimed at large vehicles and use drive by readers to measure travel. Those systems are impressive and incorporate traffic management with lane speeds for upcoming events(accidents, construction, etc.) They are not really practical for our situation in the U.S.

    Our situation in the U.S. isn't a simple one and done idea. We essentially have two types of driving and a lot of miles of highway. What works for city driving is not a good solution for rural highways. The contrast also creates difficulty in adapting a single type of vehicle. EV doesn't make any sense out in the middle of nowhere.

    I get the idea behind a VMT tax. Our current system essentially does that with the fuel tax. The EV segment is not paying their share to use the road. That disparity will continue to grow. I already deal with large truck fleets that are switching their local/mid delivery vehicles to battery based hybrids. The big players are ready to throw big money into EV fleets. We need a pay to play system for those rigs. There is also some irony to EV. They are heavier and put more weight travel on road surfaces.

    The number crunchers running these big fleets don't want to see a user fee attached to their EVs. There is also a segment of users that don't want to see it happen. But, everyone should pay to play.
    I'm just not a fan of VMT being used as an external monitoring system.
    You bring up some great points. My “charging station” is programmed to charge only on off peak hours. My electric rates will now be tied to a cost structure between peak and off peak. This will even impact my AC cost in the summer. My electric utility only allows for the reimbursement with the purchase of one of two chargers out there. Principally as they are smart chargers and connected via the internet they can “see” all my activity through. So it seems logical a tax could be associated with the charging related to the EV.

    The whole push towards EVs is a head scratcher when you think of how much we have focused on efficient heating and ac, led lights, appliances, et al, and now we look to force people into using electric for vehicle. Just seems counter intuitive. As more demand is place on the grid so will come the blackouts. Now for me I have a backup generator that should handle my ac and charging an EV. My guess is most will not consider the risk of power outages and how are you going to charge this thing. The recent Texas storm would be an example. How many people consider having to have a robust back up system?

    Your point is correct that EVs are heavier than a comparable petrol vehicle. One auto manufacture made the comment recently that they expect battery capacity to go down in the near future to lessen the weight but the range will also get shorter. He feels we will get used to the EV charging and not be so prone to panic about mileage. Not in my world. If I want to go back to see family in Chicago I would need to stop 3 times and charge for an hour each. This is a drive I have in the past made the round trip in a single day. I can’t imagine accommodating people charging for an hour or so unless we create amusement parks along the road to entertain you for an hour.

  52. #52
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Phoenix, AZ (Displaced Yooper with family connections in Houghton, Ontonagon & Marquette counties.)
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    3,297

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    Quote Originally Posted by heckler56 View Post
    … my electric company gave a payment to get a charger. This charger is now forever linked to my electric account. So I would think a tax per kWh could also be charged on my electric bill. …
    heckler56: Does your electric company use a separate meter/charge a different rate (lower?) for the KwHr used by the car charger?

  53. #53
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Traverse City, MI
    Posts
    336

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    Quote Originally Posted by frnash View Post
    heckler56: Does your electric company use a separate meter/charge a different rate (lower?) for the KwHr used by the car charger?
    My rate is based on time of day with a higher rate during 2pm-7pm everyday of the year and not by use. I could obtain another rate lowering if I choose to have a meter installed on my AC which would have a larger penalty for AC use during those hours and slightly lower off hour. The charger is in theory part of the electrical grid and visible at all times to the utility. The manufacturer masks it’s visibility outside of myself and the electric company.

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